Renowned tarot reader and intuitive channeler Kelly O'Hearn discusses how exploring past lives and esoteric symbolism inspired her book series Arcanum. We dig into the origins of the Tarot, the Deja Vu phenomenon, different understandings of metaphysics across belief systems, and insights into how parallel realities effect the afterlife(s).
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Book Recommendations
Purchase Kelly's books!
Arcanum by Kelly O'Hearn
Also mentioned:
At The Feet of The Master by Alctone (Jiddu Krishnamurti) / Man and His Symbols by C.G. Jung
Chapters
00:00 Start
6:24 First Soul Recognition Experience
13:36 Arcanum: A Journey Through Past Lives
20:39 Balancing Science and Spirituality
37:18 The Origin of Suffering
44:09 The Language of Tarot
49:36 The Role of the Reader
54:48 The Fool's Journey
1:07:23 The Art of Meditation
1:17:08 Fiction and Historical Resonance
1:27:13 Common Client Issues
1:30:54 The Secret of Manifestation
Transcript
Tyler:
[0:00] But even when the choice is made, you must still remember that of the real and the unreal there are many varieties, and discrimination must still be made between the right and the wrong, the important and the unimportant, the useful and the useless, the true and the false, the selfish and the unselfish.
Tyler:
[0:22] Jiddu Krishnamurti, age 14, 19, 10 From At the Feet of the Master
Kelly:
[0:56] My junior year in college, as many Americans do, I spent a semester in Europe, in Florence, Italy specifically, and I'd never been, and I flew over by myself, you know, so I'm 19 years old. And when I got off the train in Florence and walked out of the train station in order to get to my accommodations. I had this incredible sense of like people would say deja vu, but it was deeper than that. It was like this crazy sense of like, I've been here before and I knew everything about the city. I mean, maybe not the newer sections, but I knew where the Duomo was. I knew where Santa Maria Novella was. Like I knew where everything was and I'd never been there before. At the time, I would never have made the connection between that experience and those feelings and that just overwhelming sense of, I know this city and a past life that wasn't in my vocabulary or my awareness at that age. But it was definitely, I just kind of chalked it up to just some incredible deja vu.
Tyler:
[2:04] The reason why that stood out to me so much, and this is something I've brought up a few times with different people. I feel I grew up sort of in the countryside here in the States. And the first time that I landed in Europe, I immediately felt this different energy that I had never felt before. Where are you from originally?
Kelly:
[2:25] New York City.
Tyler:
[2:26] Okay. It may be different for you because I think cities, especially New York being an older city, have a bit more in common with Europe than say, like, I don't know, Springdale, Missouri or whatever. Sure. But it seems like We in America sort of have a lot of open space that hasn't gotten all this resonant energy, say, from thousands and thousands of years of war, conflict, just generally larger populations and such. So I've heard a few different people tell me, like the first time I went to Europe or the first time that I went to a certain place or whatever, that they had this psychic experience or this spiritual experience of just there's an energy here I've never felt before. I've never been exposed to before.
Kelly:
[3:09] Yeah, it makes sense. And I think you very much pinpointed the reason why that is. I mean, most of human history since the birth of humanity has been in the European continent, northern Africa and Asia. You know, what was once Persia. I mean, that's considered the Tigris-Euphrates Basin is considered the birth of humanity. So, yes, we had the Native American indigenous tribes on this continent. Right. It's more likely that we have spent more lives in Europe, Asia, Northern Africa than any else on the planet.
Tyler:
[3:56] Yes. Assuming like one body, one soul, just distributing it over time based on like how the population grows and goes over. It's actually like the least likely place for you to have a past life would be North America and then Australia and, or I don't know, Antarctica or something.
Kelly:
[4:12] Well, yeah, Antarctica for sure.
Tyler:
[4:13] A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, and that's making a lot of assumptions, but it's just that you're not the first person I've heard have an experience like that, have this kind of reaction to a place that's familiar to you or that you have some sort of a spiritual connection with. And that's so interesting to me. I felt very much like that in Amsterdam, just walking down the streets and then kind of, you know, I was just having this feeling that I couldn't get over. I'm like, what is it about this place? And then my friend comes up and taps me on the shoulder. is like you're standing on a burial ground, like literally right here in the street in a park in the middle of the city. It's like there's bones in this ground, you know, that there's just no other place to put them because over time, you know, we've added land and built things on top of things. And, you know, if you go to Paris, go to the catacombs, go to Switzerland, stand in those places. And it's remarkable. Yeah.
Kelly:
[5:03] And I love those moments in life where soul recognition just pops through, be it through a place or a person or whatever, but you just have a sense of like, there's something familiar here.
Tyler:
[5:15] Was it the first time that you'd had any sort of experience like that? Or did you have a sort of a development of psychical ability or just an understanding of the stuff prior to?
Kelly:
[5:25] Yeah, I mean, not an understanding. I mean, I wasn't raised with that language or that awareness. I was raised Catholic. So, you know, looking for those types of cues were not part of the lexicon in my home that I was raised in. But my very first really, really powerful soul recognition experience as I was in sixth grade, I was playing soccer. And there was a girl on the other team who I'd never seen before. You know, it was a team that came on a bus. And the minute I saw her, Tyler, I could feel her pain.
Tyler:
[6:02] Right.
Kelly:
[6:03] Like I wanted to just burst into tears. And I was so compelled by this girl. And I'd never, and I can still feel the feeling now. I'm now 50, I'm turning 59. So it was so powerful and I didn't know what it was. But I remember when they left, I remember feeling loss, like sadness that she was gone.
Kelly:
[6:25] But it was her pain I felt. And that was the very first time in my memory that I had soul recognition like that.
Tyler:
[6:34] I think we're definitely going to talk a lot about tarot. We've got a couple of hours here and stuff, but I do want to, you know, kind of start with like that journey into figuring this stuff out for yourself. And I can really personally relate to having an empathic experience and not knowing, not having the vocabulary to describe what it is that I had felt. And it was it was one of those things that I think my mother could probably talk about more extensively than I could because she saw it third person but you know something like seeing someone who had been in a traumatic accident or something even like walking down the street people who had gone through amputations burn anything like that for it wasn't that they horrified me like I looked at them and it was something wrong with their bodies it was that like I just felt this cloud out of like pain and energy and stress. And over time, as I got older and older, I kind of realized like, okay, I need to, I need to like be more measured about how and when I expose myself to things like this, even crowds and stuff like that. And I think I found that book. Was it the empath survival guide? Have you ever heard of that one?
Kelly:
[7:42] Yeah, I've never read it.
Tyler:
[7:44] You know, it's kind of woo woo. It's kind of the secret kind of sounding stuff. But in general, it's really good advice. It's like, you know, if you find yourself, whatever language you want to use to describe it, even if it's a completely secular point of view, really hypersensitive to other people's emotions, then it's good to take steps to guard yourself and to know how much you can give or expose yourself without it taking away from your ability to, you know, to live.
Kelly:
[8:07] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, no. Because my techniques are salt and black quartz or black crystals. I keep those in my work area all the time. But for the most part, I've never suffered from the intrusion, the violation of someone's energy into mine.
Tyler:
[8:29] Sure.
Kelly:
[8:31] Which I'm grateful for because it sounds very destabilizing and really disruptive.
Tyler:
[8:37] It really, really is. And I think that, you know, that's a lot of people who are, again, using whatever language you want to describe it. Like if you're a hypersensitive to anything, we have, we talk about autistic people in modern, modern language would say like, oh, he's hypersensitive or ADHD people like they have a hyper focus. And it's, it's not as simple as saying like they have something wrong with them. It's like, okay, they're tapped into something. They're, they're experiencing something that we're not also experiencing. And I think that a lot of people grow up just not having the language to describe what it is that they're experiencing. You remember the Nightmare on Elm Street with Freddy Krueger,
Kelly:
[9:15] The guy who— I've never seen it. I was too much of a chicken.
Tyler:
[9:18] There's no reason to watch it. But I will say that the story behind it, the archetype of— Someone coming into your dreams and violating you when you can do nothing about it is exactly what you were. Maybe you could use the language of like a soul vampire or energy vampire. But these spirits, these things, these manifestations, it could be something, it could be an addiction or it could be a person deliberately sort of violating your space. And I think even Star Trek had a whole episode about one of the main characters. She was an empath.
Kelly:
[9:56] And she has... Oh, yeah, Deanna Troi.
Tyler:
[9:58] Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. She's having these dreams where there's another man who's also got the same power and he's able to infiltrate her dreams and she doesn't know how to describe it. But that's exactly the same...
Kelly:
[10:09] I'm such a Trekkie.
Tyler:
[10:10] Oh, yeah, me too. I've got the Enterprise tattooed on my arm.
Kelly:
[10:13] Oh, I love it. That's so great.
Tyler:
[10:15] Yeah, we could talk about Trek, too. But the point being, I think that there's just so many attempts, even through media, to talk about this stuff. And then it's only through things like your work that I think people really find solace. And they say, like, oh, that's how I know someone else knows what I'm saying. Not because you used exactly the correct words, but because you told a story that encompasses that.
Kelly:
[10:40] Right.
Tyler:
[10:41] Yeah. What was the inspiration for the Arcanum series?
Kelly:
[10:46] So, I have to go back a little bit in terms of how I found Tarot.
Tyler:
[10:50] Okay.
Kelly:
[10:52] In 2012, I found myself in a really scary health crisis. Thankfully, nothing catastrophic remains of that. But as I was healing my life, I realized that my marriage was ending, and then my dad was dying. So all these huge stability factors in our life are your health, your primary relationship, and then one of your primary adult role models is all at risk. And as I was in my proverbial dark night of the soul, I had to find something just to distract me from my reality. And I went into a store to actually buy a crystal. It wasn't to find anything else. But there was a tarot reader in the store, and I'd never done it. I'd heard of it, of course. And I asked the store owner about, you know, what is this? Tell me about it. And he took me to his wall of decks that he sold there. And I bought my first tarot deck.
Tyler:
[11:47] Which one was it?
Kelly:
[11:48] The Morgan Greer.
Tyler:
[11:49] Okay. Okay. Yes. What is it about that deck that stood out to you?
Kelly:
[11:55] It was the colors. It's a very colorful deck. It's very vivid. And I am a very visual person. So I was very gripped by the illustrations that they use. So that it was really the colors that the that are in this deck that I love so much Right Um, but I studied the tarot and I told nobody not a best friend not a sibling nobody knew for over three years um, And then, long story short, I told people about it, and it eventually led to me starting my business, which is now a global business, and it's just all beautiful. But in 2017, one of the things I did before I started my business was I wanted to try how do other people run their business in an energy platform, be it astrology, psychics, mediums, that type of thing.
Tyler:
[12:44] Most of them don't.
Kelly:
[12:45] What?
Tyler:
[12:45] Most of them just don't.
Kelly:
[12:47] Yeah, no, I mean, and I see what I'm lucky about is I'm a business person. I was raised by business parents. So I have that comfort there. But I did a past life regression in 2017. And she told me that I was in a karmic cycle of being a woman in the company of very powerful men, but never as the wife, always as the muse or the mystic or the mistress. So, you know, I just, I didn't think much of it. I was like, all right, well, that's interesting. But I just moved on. Well, in 2020, when we were all at home, I was bored. And a friend of mine said to me, let's use your tarot cards and channel what these past lives were of your soul with these powerful men.
Kelly:
[13:32] It was really just something to pass time, you know. So we met on Zoom. It's all recorded. and I ended up channeling over 40 hours of eight different past lives of where my soul has apparently been and they were so rich there's so much intrigue there's so much beauty but also pain and loss and I knew I had to tell the story and that's how Arcanum was birthed so Arcanum the past lives are channeled through the lens of my soul even though it is a fictional it's a fictional novel.
Tyler:
[14:07] Now, this is another one of those things that I feel like comes up in this space a lot, is that the attempt to tell a true story through a fictional lens, right? And I think this is one of those things that people get hung up with any holy book, the Bible, whatever, all the allegorical stories, fairy tales, myths that we have. It's like, the truth is there. Like this, for you, it's like your past lives that you feel you need to express are coming out. So for you, it's true. For the reader, it's a true story. But it's, you know, for whatever reason, we categorize this as fiction. And sometimes it's done on purpose, right? Like there's a longstanding history of people hiding the truth in allegory for the specific purpose of not being caught doing it. because it was something you could be punished for, something you'd be judged for, whatever. But did you do that consciously or did you have like a... Like a plan you mentioned coming at this from a more of a business angle did you did you feel like the it occurred like you got this uh 40 hours or you know of your all your past lives and like okay the next thing i need to do is write a book series obviously okay
Kelly:
[15:21] The last thing i wanted to do book series yeah i first this friend of mine and i that part is that participated in it with me we contacted um some contacts we have in hollywood and on networks because it would be such a fun show because of all the different eras and civilizations that these past lives occurred you know ancient egypt renaissance france medieval scandinavia the vatican city like so really beautiful settings and times in human history um but everybody said to me kel you need a novel.
Tyler:
[15:59] You should always write a book before you attempt to make a film or
Kelly:
[16:02] TV series. Well, I wish I had, but you had been the friend I needed then, because I didn't know that. Yeah. So I hemmed and I hawed, because I'm not a writer. I mean, I'm an author now, but I still don't consider myself a writer. And I finally just bit the bullet and said, all right, let's go. Let's turn these into novels. And I figured if I was going to write novels, why not monetize the novels, like write the series of novels. Because one novel, it would just be like drawing a painting of a woman's face and only putting one eye on the face. It doesn't give the complete picture. So here I am. I'm writing book three as we speak.
Tyler:
[16:47] This may seem like it's off topic, but it's really not. What are your metaphysical
Tyler:
[16:51] ideas of how the universe works? And I guess the real question stemming from that is does the story of um your past lives their characters do they inhabit the same like physical metaphysical universe that we do do you feel
Kelly:
[17:11] Um, metaphysical universe, the metaverse, yes.
Tyler:
[17:16] Okay.
Kelly:
[17:17] This specific universe, no.
Tyler:
[17:19] Right. So they're not necessarily like lives that were lived by a human being on Earth. Is that...
Kelly:
[17:26] They were on Earth. They were on parallel realities of Earth, in my opinion. Okay.
Tyler:
[17:31] That's answering a lot of questions.
Kelly:
[17:33] And, you know, you have to understand something. Linear time and third dimensional space is not real to energy. It's a man-made construct that we use, especially linear time, in order to keep our world in and have a sense of order and control. This third dimension that we live in is mostly an illusion, right? So everything that I channeled and everything that I'm writing about, I mean, I can't sit here and swear to you that it is 100% true and it's 100% accurate. It's, you know, but what my belief is, is that the truth of us is that we're energetic beings having a human experience. And our energy body, our soul, our true self, whatever you want to call it, is the part of us that never ceases to exist. Sure. And then once it has finished its time here in this meat suit, it will return to the field of existence, which is the truth of everything, which you can call a field of love, you can call God, you can, you know, whatever. I call it consciousness.
Kelly:
[18:42] And the idea of past lives, first of all, I want you to understand something. Their lives that our soul chooses i really believe we have the free will choice to choose to have a human experience on this planet in this earth or any other planet or a civilization that may exist in order for the pure purpose of learning and ascending and growing the vibration and frequency of the energetic body.
Tyler:
[19:15] I'm not in any position to disagree with any of that. I guess, how did you go from, you know, being raised Catholic to buying a tarot card deck to arrive? Like, how did you develop this sense of metaphysics? Like, this is how the universe works.
Kelly:
[19:29] Yeah. Well, because first of all, I am, I mean, in school, I was much more excited about science and math than I was about English. And I mean, I've always liked history, but English, you know, I couldn't, it wasn't my strength. So science has been something that always has interested me. And so as I was learning the tarot and learning about divination and my intuitive muscle was strengthening, I needed a framework, something for my scientific egoic mind, my brain, to hang on to. So I did a deep dive into physics, quantum physics, and all of the technological and informational breakthroughs that we've made in this era of human history. I mean, at the time it was, what, 2014, 2015, 2016, you know, from that time forward. And I found a lot of hard concrete data that supports a lot of what I'm saying, especially with the quantum realm now. And quantum physics has made some great, really compelling breakthroughs.
Kelly:
[20:35] And that very much satisfied that skeptic brain of mine. So then what was able to happen is with that part of me being satisfied and not constantly throwing static and roadblocks into my ascension and my evolution and my growth, I was able then to completely let go and lean into faith and trust.
Tyler:
[20:58] I think that a lot of people have... I should start with a lot of people who do have that inclination towards the logical side of brain. You even hear it kind of talked about amongst theocrats, like comparing the Orthodox church to the Catholic church was like the Catholic church is all intellectual and the Orthodox church is like, Oh, it doesn't, don't worry about it. Make it sense. Like, you know, it's a, it's a merely emotive. That's, that's the idea. Both pointing towards the same universal truth, um, or at least claim to,
Tyler:
[21:34] But yeah the way that we arrive at these sort of different conclusions with different points of view different experiences of how our our brains work whether that be coming from a more math or humanity side of things or or whatever and so you you seem to have sort of came to the almost like you did with florence you came to the table with an innate understanding of your parts of this for yourself right like a general hurdle that a lot of people run into when they get into this stuff is that they don't know how to monetize it or they feel guilty about monetizing it which is a big part of it too you already knew how to do that or at least you had experience doing that kind of thing yeah do you do you think that this happened sort of by chance or do you feel like there was an intelligence guiding that to happen?
Kelly:
[22:30] Oh, 100% intelligence.
Tyler:
[22:33] Okay.
Kelly:
[22:34] Yeah. I mean, I definitely lived through the experience of my stubbornness and my fear preventing me from knowing what my soul was trying to tell me. I knew there were things. I just didn't want to know that with my marriage, with how I was living, the choices I was making, all of these things. I had priorities that superseded my own desires. So I put that to the side. But trust me when I say this, when you ignore the call of your soul, it will turn up the volume to get your attention. So the volume got turned up so high that I actually got sick. I manifested a disease. And that got my attention and somehow in the healing of my body I healed myself right into the authentic alignment with the path I was supposed to be on.
Tyler:
[23:30] Did you ask for something to give you that guidance?
Kelly:
[23:34] No that's why I think it was such a difficult experience if I had asked and had been open to receiving that it would have been a much smoother transition but this was painful this this i mean i i had to end a marriage i had to i have children like i had to cause pain to people that i love yeah you know i don't want that for anybody i mean and so if i had been open and asking because i ask now all the time for guidance and i get guidance all the time but it's smooth and it's easy there's the resistance doesn't have time to build up because i'm constantly asking and open to what comes yeah um but it was the greatest gift i've ever been given, despite the pain of it.
Tyler:
[24:20] Do you think that pain is necessary for growth
Kelly:
[24:25] Pain is necessary for change it's definitely not necessary for growth okay but oftentimes humans get so comfortable and we fear change therefore we don't grow but if you are willing to embrace change. And it doesn't have to be, you don't have to blow up your side of the street to have change happen. It can be how you approach something. It can be about your point of view and your perspective. You don't have to change one detail of your life in terms of where you live, who you live with, what you do, all these things. But you change your inner frequency and vibration about it all, and things will change. But because humans are innately wired to fear change, it's programming, pain becomes part of the experience. Because it's the only way to force change.
Tyler:
[25:14] Have you ever taken one of those surveys where it just sort of asks you pointed questions to try to decide like, oh, you fall into this category with religion? I think everyone's taken maybe a Myers-Briggs or a personality test.
Kelly:
[25:28] I never did. Yeah. I mean, I know them. My siblings did it and all that. I never did.
Tyler:
[25:33] Right.
Kelly:
[25:34] Yeah.
Tyler:
[25:34] The reason I ask is the way that they sort of break them down is interesting to me. The questions that it would ask you to determine, like, which of these religions of all the world's religions or whatever do you most align with, so to speak. And it's not really about what the answer is. It's almost like tarot, where it's like, it's what the questions you're asking and how do you interpret the data that's coming back to you. But some of the main things that it asks you is, like, where do you think, what is the origin of suffering? Like, that's a huge thing that separates Buddhism from, I don't know, Christianity from Hindu. They're all, they differ on things like that. And having something that points to you, like, these are actually the key differences. It makes it, for me, easier to see how alike they really are. But yeah, something like the origin of suffering or whether or not there is something innate like a soul. Like, I think that's a lot of people walk into, you know, Zen Buddhist temple and they're from a Western point of view. And then as soon as they hear something like no soul, it's like, oh, well, this is the devil or whatever. And they leave it alone. Did you did you search through different people's gurus, teachers, read any books?
Kelly:
[26:50] Never.
Tyler:
[26:51] No. Just all came through you.
Kelly:
[26:53] Just purely my own journey, my own experience with my higher self. How did my guides?
Tyler:
[26:59] How did you come in contact with these guys?
Kelly:
[27:04] Um, I kind of, I, I, well, to use some expressions that a lot of people know, I mean, to me, I feel like everybody constantly uses on a daily basis what is called in certain circles, clairsentience. It's just a knowing, right? It's a hunch. It's an instinct. It's a sense about something. It could be about your kids. It could be about your work. It could be about a trip you're about to take, whatever. But we all have clairsentience. My guides came to me first through Clairaudience. I started to hear in my own voice. It's not like I heard voices. It was my voice, but it wasn't my words. It wasn't coming from me.
Kelly:
[27:43] Um so i started to get these like messages these these inklings of thoughts possibilities ideas, guidance uh choices to make and i realized that that wasn't that was not coming from my brain and my mind so where the hell was that coming from and that's where the tarot helped me a lot because tarot is a language. And just like any language, the vocabulary of each card has certain meaning. Right. And it's concrete meaning. You know, the word blue can be a color or it can be like an emotion like sadness, right? I love the color blue. I feel blue. Those are the two meanings of the word blue. Right. And in the tarot, each card has its own same type of exact meaning. So the cards I would use to help me confirm, this what i was hearing what i was sensing and when i learned to realize like oh my god it is accurate then i just kind of again i got out of my own way and i allowed it to build um.
Kelly:
[28:53] Is it what are these guides i that i can't really tell you it's not like you know there's esther hicks of course is one of the most famous human beings that channels her guide abraham which is a collective of some sort of spiritual being, but she has named it Abraham. I've never been given a name. I've never been given—it feels angelic in energy, but it's not necessarily angels the way we think of them from religion. But it's just—that's how I came to really exercise that intuitive muscle and trust it.
Tyler:
[29:30] Yeah you use a really important phrase at least for me where you're saying um let me try to i'll have to rewind it and go back to see exactly how you said it so i'm just going to reiterate like this the the disincarnate um intelligence right you the the fact that this thing this whatever multiples or whatever um it is an intelligence it's it's guiding but you recognize that it's not yourself right i think that's the phraseology i want to focus on i uh i think it was uh krishnamurti um who was uh he was basically raised by the theosophist he was this indian kind of guru character that was annie basant basically took custody of him as a kid took him around and stuff he wrote some really profound teachings uh despite all the craziness that went on around him one of them was that you have to recognize the voices within yourself that are not yourself so he would say like you know your your body wants something um but that could be food it could be a drug it could be sex it could be anything but when that doesn't align with your true will which i think
Tyler:
[30:52] The thelemites might have more to say on that but focusing on kind of his teachings here your your will doesn't align in that point at that point with your body then you're there's also your uh your mental self and then he also described the astral self sort of as three separate people living within one yeah i agree with that and i would say you know from christians use the terms the trinity all the time i think almost never really having a an understanding of at least where that concept came from prior to its development in christianity but everyone has the id ego and super ego you could call it that you could call it the astral self the mental self and the physical self but none of those individually are you and it took me well into my 20s and deep meditation practice and a lot of guidance to arrive at that conclusion. And it's amazing to me to hear you say that almost intuitively, like it was just, you already knew that. Where does that come? Yeah, why?
Kelly:
[31:54] I don't know. I just think it was something that, you know, it's interesting. When I, too, was in my 20s, I dipped my toe into this pool.
Tyler:
[32:03] Sure.
Kelly:
[32:04] And I did start reading books. You know, Wayne Dyer was a young guy then and had just written one of his most famous books. And still to this day was one of, you know, and Louise Hay was just coming really online. And so I read some of these books about the higher self. Sure. And it resonated so deeply, Tyler, it would move me to tears. I felt like I was finally coming home. And then life interceded, and I got distracted by more superficial pursuits, career, things like that. And so that got shut down. And again, it didn't reawaken in me until this episode of The Health Journey.
Kelly:
[32:45] So you know it's always been in there just like with everybody it's a seed that is just waiting to be watered just a little bit and the minute you water it give it in other words give it a little attention give it a little um acknowledgement and and and permission to grow then it will grow um but it just also depends like don't forget from what you said like it has to grow within the person i am too not just the infinite being that i am right so i think one of the reasons where i i you know i'm an intuitive channeler for sure but i don't call myself an empath sure because i've always had really good strong boundaries in my life always sure i've always been able to hold good boundaries no has most of my life been a complete sentence for me so i don't have that sensitivity i mean yeah you know i was a woman in the western culture so i was a bit of a people pleaser but not to the point where i'm i i don't allow a lot of things to penetrate me that aren't mine that's good um which has been great i mean not it's not perfect but it's been really lucky so i haven't so my point is is that this intuitive gift.
Kelly:
[33:59] Grew within me within of course the the the boundaries of me sure um and the way that i learn and the way that i trust and you have to understand something when you are in the throes of losing everything that you have held dear and that has been the definition of your life thus far.
Kelly:
[34:20] You it's literally a game of 52 card pickup it's like you take a playing card deck and just throw it in the air and just like, all right, wherever they lie, I'm going to start from there. So that kind of surrender, I had no resistance because I was just, I was finished. I was at the end of my row.
Tyler:
[34:42] Sure. You had to be broken down. You have to be humbled in order to build.
Kelly:
[34:46] It was like a fast track.
Tyler:
[34:50] Sure. I love mythology. I love symbols, if you can tell.
Kelly:
[34:55] This is a big journey so long.
Tyler:
[34:57] I think that when you look at some of these stories about the gods of, I don't know, Greece or whatever, or India, we hear all of this language talking about when someone basically comes to a crossroads in their life and the the manifestation the intelligence that they call god has to humble them in some way has to strike them with lightning in their place or or the my favorite of course is the story of right yeah just all of the worst things that could possibly happen to someone uh he has to lose everything in order to arrive at the conclusion at the end that there's something bigger than myself and it's not for me to decide how things ought to be but for we haven't really talked about and you don't have to be specific if you don't want to be like what were you suffering from and you're in a bad relationship you're coming to a point i guess in life where there's not a whole lot of decisions where like i can start over completely where i was when i was 21 or whatever but what like what were you suffering from do you think i
Kelly:
[36:05] Developed a whole host of what is now called autoimmune issues.
Tyler:
[36:08] Okay you
Kelly:
[36:10] Know back then in 2012 there i mean it was we were just starting to scratch the surface maybe a fibromyalgia and lupus and things like that but, um but what i had done is i had manifested this disease because i had i had swallowed my voice for so long and you know and i i kind of put myself into a shell of an existence and a life that wasn't authentic to my voice to my heart i was happy don't get me wrong i was very happy for a really long time but i wasn't being true to my heart it all looked good it all it all was good You know, I mean, my ex-husband is a wonderful man who I care about deeply. I just couldn't stay married. But there was no, like, betrayal. There was no abuse. There was none of that. But I betrayed myself. And when you basically cut off your heart from being a part of how you move through the world, your body will suffer.
Kelly:
[37:18] Because to me, the origin of suffering is the absence of love.
Kelly:
[37:24] And, and I'm not just talking about, I mean, everyone's going to think it's romantic, intimate love. No, not at all. To me, the highest vibration of love is compassion. And there's kindness, and there's gentleness, and there's forgiveness, and there's friendship, and there's, you know, all, there's so many different vibrations of love. And I literally had cut off the vibration of love within me. So I got sick.
Tyler:
[37:49] Yeah i've i had a friend who went through something similar i think but it was it was not really around a marriage so much so as around her parents when she came of age yeah she had developed a tumor you know cancer's tumor from all of the stress surrounding it and then because you know oh this is horrible all that sort of thing but instead of uh i think instead of what a lot of people would do is stay with the unhappy family and try to go do you know allopathic treatment all this sort of thing she just removed herself from the stressful situation and the tumor went away of course and you can't call that a miracle right you know you can't yeah yeah i'm
Kelly:
[38:31] So grateful her body gave her the gift of a tumor because that's That's like an encapsulated form of like all the anger, all the resentment, all the pain is just put into this like structure in your body. And I know it is scary to get that type of diagnosis, but I'm so glad it wasn't a systemic situation.
Tyler:
[38:51] A lot of people would have been given that same news and it would have made the situation worse, perhaps made them more stressed out.
Kelly:
[38:59] I'm so glad she saw it for what it was. God bless. That's awesome.
Tyler:
[39:02] Yeah. And, you know, that's so we could fill up three hours with just telling stories that we both know about that kind of thing. But it's so interesting to me, like when these with things that you might call a miracle, they do happen. And it's like equal parts from both sides. One being the sort of skeptical materialist side saying like, oh, well, you know, these are the physical explanations for that. Therefore, it's not a miracle because you because you can explain a miracle physically. Right. I don't know it's like it's like if you said like where did what's the miracle of life where does it come from and I say oh well it's just you know a seed and an egg and then they grow or whatever and it's just a thermodynamics there's nothing to it that doesn't make it any less of a miracle that it happened right and the other side of that though being the the people who I think walk into these sorts of things with a preconception of what their spiritual lens will let them see
Tyler:
[39:51] And you may hear the same words and be completely put off. I used the example earlier of like soullessness and Buddhism or whatever, but...
Tyler:
[40:00] Anything at all um even just something as simple as you're from new york and i'm from alabama and you know there's probably words that i could use that or that you could use that we wouldn't understand you know like what does that mean turn a phrase something like that um that same level like if you just simply take the normal level of misunderstanding you have on a day-to-day basis with the people that you're closest to and extrapolate that all across you know cultures yeah time frames uh spiritual lenses whatever can become very very confusing one of the one of the things that i i never try to assert any sort of like overarching truth that anyone else should believe in but on this journey this podcast uh learning from people like yourself um talking about this there are there are always differences you know your experience is different than i don't know like dr bruce selheim that i had on before but the the where they overlap the things that you hear wiser people say that remain true consistently throughout each of their stories i mean those are the tarot cards of life that's how i see it you know i'm like okay well i don't necessarily see uh 10 swords right occur in every single lifetime but i do see these archetypes like these things come up repeatedly amongst people who are successful or people who have gone through trauma and overcome it um whereas the
Tyler:
[41:29] Same story might be told and then they just end for someone who doesn't progress i think that that says something about um we've used past lives we've used the words like reincarnation that kind of thing i think it says something about
Tyler:
[41:41] Our intuition the way our brain works that when we tell a story that there have to be these ingredients there have to be these cards along the way or whatever that we recognize. The order can change, but the story ultimately remains more or less the same. But I'm curious though, like from your perspective, you mentioned the tarot as a language. Like, I don't know, do you speak Hebrew? Can you read Hebrew?
Kelly:
[42:05] No.
Tyler:
[42:06] That's, see, that's one of those things. So you came to the thing completely just from an intuitive standpoint. You're attracted to a color and you speak the language of colors. That's what got you.
Kelly:
[42:18] But yeah that's what that's what compelled me to buy that deck right yeah i.
Tyler:
[42:23] Had to go intellectualize it i had to be like okay where's the you know i'm gonna go read the hebrew alphabet and figure out what every one of these symbols mean how does it match to the 22 of the greater arcana and i need to make all of those connections just to like you mentioned something earlier i think about you know you have to make it make sense to you logically before you can have that transition to it becoming faith and i think for me it was it was the same way maybe just a little a little longer of a workaround
Kelly:
[42:50] Well yeah i mean we got to i mean we because every person approaches it differently and we're supposed to sure um and i i like you i find comfort in the overlap you know when someone has had a similar experience or can speak you know like what like what you just said just about the tarot i mean you approached it from a different lens using the hebrew alphabet and um but at the end of the day you learn the language you know and it's it's now something that we can discuss and converse about and learn from each other and all those amazing things. But for me, to go back to what you said, I mean, thank God not every person has a Ten of Swords experience in their life. And just for those of your listeners that don't know the tarot, the Ten of Swords is our mental body, and the Ten of Swords is very painful endings in your life that causes you a lot of great mental disruption. It could be really hard to shake, In other words.
Tyler:
[43:46] It's usually drawn as a dead man with 10 swords stuck in him.
Kelly:
[43:49] Yeah, it's a really gruesome illustration.
Tyler:
[43:51] Yeah.
Kelly:
[43:53] But going back to the archetypes, then we're talking about the first 22 cards of the deck, the major arcana. Which is card zero through 21. And that's what we call in the tarot, the fool's journey, but it's the characters and characteristics that everybody
Kelly:
[44:07] experiences in life over and over and over again. A similar description of what I'm talking about is Joseph Conrad's hero's journey. You know, you have the beginning. Pardon?
Tyler:
[44:20] Joseph Campbell.
Kelly:
[44:21] Oh, Joseph Campbell. Thank you. All I know is I knew it's hero's journey.
Tyler:
[44:25] I knew you were saying the right thing and then it was going to bother me if I didn't figure out what I meant.
Kelly:
[44:29] I'm so glad you did. I love being, I love having it right. I hate being wrong and things like that. So Campbell deserves all the credit. But it's just, it's such an interesting language to use. And remember the tarot at the end of the day, it's just a divination tool of the human experience. And it's really supposed to be a divination tool, you know, for the one, for the self, to help you understand where you may not be seeing something clearly. Where is my vibration in relationship to this topic.
Tyler:
[45:00] Right.
Kelly:
[45:01] You know, because I know where my thoughts are. I know where I'm holding stress in my body. I know oftentimes how my, well, not everybody knows their emotional body, but most of us know how we emotionally believe we feel about something. But we don't know where our vibration is in relationship to it. And that is the key to everything. That to me is why tarot is such a powerful tool.
Kelly:
[45:22] Because when you can take ownership of where your frequency is in relationship to a topic in your life that you are either suffering from or enjoying, you can change what's happening in your life.
Tyler:
[45:36] I think you mentioned earlier that change is always painful. And when you go to sit down with someone who's going to read you your tarot cards, and let's just, any random group of cards that they show you, some of them may mean something to you and some of them may not. Like when you look, I don't know, maybe you pull the ten of swords in front of someone they look right at that and it doesn't ring a bell that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them necessarily but what it what it's telling me is like okay that's not the part that their brain is ready to focus on so then maybe they gravitate towards like oh i don't know here's this chariot or something like that they gravitate towards that and
Tyler:
[46:19] It's so interesting to watch someone extrapolate from something like they just see like, well, there's something about this right here like that. I see that. Why is that? And they're asking themselves questions and then they're starting to answer their own questions. And then they want to thank you at the end or whatever. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like you did all the work yourself. But you what happened was you had a change in your brain.
Tyler:
[46:41] Like you just went through the process of change because you made a connection. You saw something that made you question why do i have a relationship with this thing that's by definition magic like when you change something with your will uh you know drawing a symbol drawing a picture saying words in a certain way whatever that happens to be if you can affect someone that way if you can cause someone to change you have done magic um in this case you're doing it on yourself um you could have people who try to like mess with you about that like to manipulate you to cause you to you know maybe think something that you you're supposed to do karmically that is not true or doesn't apply or is just for their gain there's plenty of that kind of stuff but just viewed completely as like almost like a psychological tool i think the tarot is probably one of the most interesting things i've ever come across in life and i wasn't the kind of person who would, like you were saying earlier, I was not the kind of person who was going to be playing with tarot cards.
Kelly:
[47:42] Yeah.
Tyler:
[47:42] Yeah.
Kelly:
[47:42] Yeah. Most of us aren't.
Tyler:
[47:45] Do you have a card that you have a special relationship with or maybe see often?
Kelly:
[47:51] Yeah, the strength card. That's definitely the theme of this life for me.
Kelly:
[47:55] It's the number eight card. Obviously, the name of the card is very self-evident. It's about strength, endurance, lasting power, finding your way through, knowing it's going to be okay. All of these things.
Tyler:
[48:11] Effortlessly mastering things that are difficult.
Kelly:
[48:14] That's one of those things.
Tyler:
[48:15] And you've effortlessly mastered a lot of things that I think people find difficult.
Kelly:
[48:19] Yeah.
Tyler:
[48:20] And that's like people who are following along audio, grab a card, go under Google or whatever. But strength is like a woman holding a lion like a baby, like just as if it's not a problem at all. That's something that I want to like drive home here is that that's been a lot of the things that you said were sort of this particular thing that took me or someone else like so long to into it. you just had it you had it from the jump
Kelly:
[48:46] Yeah it's a gift wild beast sure yeah over and over and over um yeah so that's probably it's not my favorite card in the tarot but that's the card that is the theme of this life of kelly o'hearn my favorite card in the tarot is the knight of pentacles because it's the safest most trustworthy card in the deck it's not the fast it's the slowest moving energy in the deck but it's when that shows up whatever you're talking about Whatever topic is on the table, whatever query has been asked, something safe, reliable, and lasting will come of it. It may not happen quickly, but it will come.
Tyler:
[49:25] I think that's a really good interpretation of it. I think of them as like dependable, like this, or trustworthy or something like that.
Kelly:
[49:32] 100%. Trustworthy, safe, reliable, all those things. Sure.
Tyler:
[49:36] Do you have something? I don't want to ask about any like particular client or whatever, but like a situation where you've seen someone, uh, completely read the wrong message and then go out and do the wrong thing?
Kelly:
[49:53] Well, you have to understand something. When I work with people, they don't read the cards. I do.
Tyler:
[49:57] Okay.
Kelly:
[49:58] So the way I work is people come to me, obviously, when they are in crisis. No one comes to me when life is going swimmingly. I work primarily through Zoom. I only work in person maybe 10 to 15 times a year. And I work with hundreds and hundreds of people every year. And they observe as i pull as i get their cards for them and i interpret the cards now i do have some clients of course that speak tarot so we can riff and converse about it um and then they can share where it is resonating with them where they feel it's aligning with their life and their reality because remember tyler i i'm an intuitive channeler i can read people's energetic bodies i cannot read their mind. That is not my gift. So I can't say to someone, I tend to pull five cards at a time. I'm very much like odd numbers. I do not use any spread. I'm not a spread user. So I can tell them what the energy is and where I'm feeling it. You know, you often can sense if it's in the arena of love or the arena of career or the arena of something, you know. But I can't say oh my god your husband Tommy and his brother John when they were like I can't access memories because I can't read people's minds so um but yeah no my clients do not read their own cards with me.
Tyler:
[51:24] That's very interesting did you did you always do it that way or did you arrive at that
Kelly:
[51:29] Always.
Tyler:
[51:32] You ever thought about doing it a different way?
Kelly:
[51:35] No, because this way is so powerful. Okay.
Tyler:
[51:38] I'm not questioning it. I'm just curious.
Kelly:
[51:39] No, no, no. It's a valid question. I mean, it's not that I'm not open to other ways of doing it. I mean, there's so many ways of working with tarot. It's incredible. But I am paid to channel their energy to help them to understand where that is. So they are paying me to read their cards. Yeah. If they could read their own, they wouldn't pay me.
Tyler:
[52:06] Have you ever not told someone information about themselves or that you might have known, like trying to protect them?
Kelly:
[52:15] No, that's one. That's another reason. Now, I have had to deliver some really, really difficult truths about where people's energy is in relationship to things. You know, obviously, for instance, one of the hardest things to hear is, you know, if you and your partner don't change your energy and your approach, this relationship most likely will end. Be it a marriage, a long-term commitment, it doesn't matter. But regardless, it's no one wants to hear that they're going to have the chance of a loss of love. But, you know, I'm a very compassionate person, so I always phrase it in a really loving way because there's always an opportunity for change. You just have to put in the work nothing has to end but the way you engage in it has to change, or else you'll just get more of the same so there i have to have very difficult conversations with people and make them take ownership for their part in their reality because the rest of it's just an illusion now i don't say that to my clients because a lot of people aren't ready to hear that. But life is just a reflection back to you of what you are, not what you want.
Kelly:
[53:27] So people have to take ownership for that. And that's where I come in.
Tyler:
[53:33] Do you find that people, when they hear something like that, do they reject that more often than not? Or do you feel like you have the trust of your client where they're going to just take your word for it?
Kelly:
[53:53] Yeah, great question. I've had a few people that have been very much in a rejection. They haven't been ready. So we pivot. you know it's and that's okay you know it's i literally say to them like it's okay if this isn't resonating with you right now and you're not ready to hear this that's okay let's let's pivot to a different a different way of approaching it sure you know because there's so many ways to you know quote unquote skin a cat so a lot of people most of my clients have i've earned their trust implicitly, so they really trust. And it rings true. They feel it within them. They may not want to know it. They may not have wanted to want to accept it, but they know it lands true. And that, like you just said, that's the magic. That's the miracle. That's when things start to change and shift.
Tyler:
[54:49] Can you explain, like, for someone who might be listening and doesn't know what we're talking about the idea of the fool's journey and sort of the story that the tarot tells?
Kelly:
[54:59] Of course. So in the tarot, the fool's journey is 22 cards. It starts with the zero card. It's zero intentionally because nothing has really happened yet. And the fool card, which is the zero card, is the leap of faith, the new beginning. And it's called a leap of faith. And in the card, the classic illustration is a gentleman literally on the side of a mountain who's about to jump off the mountain um and that's oftentimes what we do unwittingly.
Tyler:
[55:27] By the way i just want to say he's not like committing suicide he's like careless
Kelly:
[55:31] Right right yeah but you i mean oftentimes in order to make things happen and shift in your life there has to be that moment of just releasing control, which is what the fool represents. So you then move through a lot of archetypes, characters, the magician, the emperor, the empress, the hierophant.
Kelly:
[55:57] And this is all about the masculine and feminine. The magician is about manifestation because after you kind of surrender control and your grip and restriction around something, all of a sudden you're open to pure possibility. And that's what the magician card represents. But the Fool's Journey takes you through all of the experiences that you have from the beginning of release and surrender to the actualization and completion of a cycle. It can be a cycle that lasts for an entire lifetime. It can be a cycle that you do in the transformation of a body, perhaps through weight loss and exercise. It can be in love. I mean, we go through Fool's Journeys all the time in so many different ways but there is you know there's the build-up and there's the understanding the way we approach it do we take a more masculine energy of do and action and forcefulness are we more feminine and intuitive and allowing but then then there comes the crisis cards of you know the death card the transformation the tower the devil where you really have to face your fear and face your blockages and face your truth and then the healing starts and then the resolution, and then you start all over again.
Tyler:
[57:17] Do you, uh, did you ever study the Kabbalah?
Kelly:
[57:22] No.
Tyler:
[57:23] Okay. That's another weird, it's another one of those things. How do you understand this stuff without, without knowing, uh, sort of, you know, origins and stuff like that? Did any of your past lives study this stuff?
Kelly:
[57:36] Not in the ones I channeled for Arcanum, no. Um, but again, I'm given a lot of information.
Tyler:
[57:43] Okay. Have you looked into other people who have had communications like this throughout history?
Kelly:
[57:54] Like, such as?
Tyler:
[57:58] There are lots of people throughout the course of history, right, who've had relationships with guiding voices or, as you said, like a spiritual guide, right? What did that be?
Kelly:
[58:09] No i mean i you know i i've i've watched videos like youtubes with um mr hicks and abraham um that that uh daryl anka who channels bishar but i don't follow them i just you know i've come across my feed yeah.
Tyler:
[58:27] I mean in my particular case it's like I've talked to several different people who have talked, you know, like, tell me I've talked to this intelligence or this thing. Some of them have names for it. Some of them don't. One of the ways that you can sort of cooperate these things, like, do they make sense? It's like, are there consistencies that occur throughout them that say that you didn't talk to the other person in game, right? Like, or you didn't hear it in the news and say, like, okay, that's what makes sense. Like if two people say they got abducted by aliens and neither of them know each other, neither of them saw it in the news, and both of them say, and the aliens had red eyes and they did this, said this to me. Then it's like, okay, whether or not we think you're lying about the aliens, how did you two both know to say that? Exactly. So a cooperating story. So one of the things that is a consistency, I mentioned earlier how a lot of people, like you said, they don't have a name for it. It's not presented to them in that way. Uh one of the most famous mystics of all time like helena blavatsky right she and a few other people allegedly were part of like a group who were receiving written letters from a tibetan uh guru who you know they can't prove whether or not this guy even existed but like sort of the entirety of the theosophical movement is built on uh basically three people receive these letters from this guy. Two different guys.
Kelly:
[59:52] Amazing.
Tyler:
[59:53] Yeah. And they receive letters. That's really not the important part. It's some of the things that these entities say that remain true throughout time. So if
Tyler:
[1:00:06] I don't know, this is 1870-something or whatever, Richard Sennett and Madame Lavatsky receive something, and it's telling them, like, this is the divine teaching, you need to do this, this, and that. That could be all a bunch of made-up BS, right? It could be as crazy as Joseph Smith and his golden tablets. But let's just say if Joseph Smith had channeled the same thing, right, that someone else completely unrelated to him had channeled the same thing, that is pointing more closely towards truth or more evidence to support their claim and i don't really i try not to get lost in the ways that they differ like i said earlier i like to find the overlaps and like okay what's the core story here and i'll leave it up to the you know audience people to decide for themselves but when i'm hearing you talk it sounds so crazily like there's so many things you don't intellectually understand like through your own admission that you have to have had some sort of experience with in order to, on the level that you do, be able to talk about the tarot, right? To be able to express it in such an eloquent way. And then I'm like, but do you read Hebrew or do you know anything about Kabbalah? You know so much about something that is entirely based on Jewish mysticism. And then you're telling me you don't know nothing about that. Somebody, somewhere, someone told you this. Someone put that in there, like a download or maybe matrix style into your brain.
Kelly:
[1:01:35] Yeah. I appreciate the software upgrade.
Tyler:
[1:01:38] No.
Kelly:
[1:01:40] Yeah. I mean, it could very well be past life. As you know, I mean, I obviously, of all people, would believe that. And I know our past lives somatically live in our bodies and are accessible. But I've gotten to the point, and I've done this long enough. I mean, I haven't done it as long as many people, but I've done it as long enough for me. That i have released all resistance i don't have a quiver of doubt when it comes to this bucket in my life so i'm just an open channel are.
Tyler:
[1:02:14] You afraid of something using that for something bad
Kelly:
[1:02:19] Like i said i have great boundaries they wouldn't dare, um i'm too strong okay and when i first started i would take on sometimes the energy of the person i was working with and i would feel like a little strung out and a little like oh you know i and i but i i knew it wasn't mine.
Tyler:
[1:02:39] Empathic mirroring uh i think a lot of people would would call that words when when you when you're uh dealing with someone who you don't really know and you're sort of giving them back the energy they're giving you as as like a maybe it's not on purpose but but it's like a survival trait. Like you're mirroring back the same energy, but then you end up feeling like they do because you're sort of behaving like they do.
Kelly:
[1:03:03] Yeah, because when I work with my clients too, I'm working in their energetic body and I'm literally helping to shift their frequency. Okay. I'm wanting to make them an energetic match for the results that they want in life where they are not seeing those results. But I now know how to do that where I can go and, you know, to use a star trek term mind meld um energy meld with their energetic body work with them, you know raise the vibration and then i can remove myself fully out of that and not take any residual of theirs with me when i first started i would take that residual with me but i don't anymore but you have to understand something i also don't live in a world it is I know evil exists. I would never ever even think otherwise because we live in a creation of duality and of opposites. But it doesn't exist for me. I don't resonate with that. So I have no fear that anything's going to come after me.
Tyler:
[1:04:10] I think there's language for this probably, honestly, from theosophy, but it's likely based on something older like Hindu, Buddhism, somewhere of Eastern origin. But this concept of, like, you talked earlier about the third dimension or the middle layer of reality.
Tyler:
[1:04:31] It's like we're above the lower frequencies, but we're far from the highest
Tyler:
[1:04:36] frequencies, so to speak. Uh and their their teachings are sort of aligned with like the uh the things that we call spirits or disincarnate intelligences consciousnesses some of them are you know something that we're getting like a like a wave in the ocean you know from way up on high from the source some of these are uh people people's spirits who don't have a body lost it somehow or negative energy that manifests into something right and that stuff does exist but once you like let's just say let's just call ourselves like everyone starts on level three some people sink down to level one and have to get back up some people uh sounds like in your particular case start at like five or six you know you're like you come into this life on this wavelength right and then maybe you have to get broken down before you're even ready to go you know higher that that's possible too um but
Tyler:
[1:05:32] When you are say inhabiting the the fifth dimension the sixth something like that the the lower vibration stuff down on level two three one whatever are not affecting you the same way that they would if you were on level three and it's on level two um almost like a gravitational sort of concept like the further away the two things are the less they interact yeah that makes though they do interact no matter what the distance is right it's a spooky action at a distance,
Tyler:
[1:06:02] Like you said earlier, with the quantum physics stuff.
Tyler:
[1:06:06] Do you, do you find, do you find yourself, because you said you'd never, you don't, you're at a stage now where you don't doubt this at all, but do you find yourself still learning new, new tricks, new ideas?
Kelly:
[1:06:20] All the time.
Tyler:
[1:06:21] Yeah.
Kelly:
[1:06:22] I mean, you know, we're infinite. There's, there's never going to be enough. We're never going to know it all. And we're never going to want to stop learning and stop just, you know, all of it, like creating and living and learning. And, and so, I mean, and I mean, it's. I don't think I walk around this life like skipping and, you know, whistling a tune every day. Like, you know, I'm human. I have my fears. I have my challenges. I have my restriction. I have my stuff, right? Sure. But I love it. I have no desire to ascend to Buddha enlightenment, Christ consciousness, and that, I mean, I love the humanity and the messiness of it all.
Tyler:
[1:07:00] Sure.
Kelly:
[1:07:01] I just love it. So, again, it just doesn't stick. It happens. I have an emotional response, which, if it's a challenge, could be frustration or anger. It could be heartbreak or sadness, whatever. And then it's over.
Tyler:
[1:07:24] You ever practice meditation?
Kelly:
[1:07:26] Yes.
Tyler:
[1:07:27] What style or what is it that you do when you meditate? How do you practice?
Kelly:
[1:07:33] It's the Kelly style.
Tyler:
[1:07:34] Right. As with all things,
Kelly:
[1:07:37] Everything you do is... I've never read a book. Right. I've never done it. I did try a couple of recorded apps.
Tyler:
[1:07:46] Yeah.
Kelly:
[1:07:48] But that wasn't for me. So, as I mentioned to you earlier, I'm a very visual person. So, I found the idea of imagining a safe space where I could just kind of hover and be was very helpful to me because I need a visual. Sure. But my meditations are busy. They are busy. Not my mind. I'm not thinking about my life here. But I'm engaged with sounds, with lights, with different energetic beings. When I hear people talk about medicine journeys and stuff, I'm like, oh, that sounds like my meditation.
Tyler:
[1:08:34] Um do you have vivid dreams also no interesting okay i'm
Kelly:
[1:08:40] Not i mean sometimes i do but very seldom.
Tyler:
[1:08:42] Have you ever had a an experience where you were in control of your own dream yes okay do you have that same experience during meditation or do you feel a passenger and
Kelly:
[1:08:54] Oh no i'm totally in control.
Tyler:
[1:08:55] Okay so do you think that those are two different occurrences like the the wavelength or the experience you're having meditating and the experience that people are having when they're asleep or not connected i don't
Kelly:
[1:09:08] I mean i think my astral body my higher self whatever you want to call it is taking and and and my mind we're having a moment like we're having an experience and if some people want to astral travel in while they're sleeping, um and experience it that way that's great i mean i love it when i dream don't get me wrong i wish i dreamt more i love to dream and you know for those who haven't yet flown in your dreams, make an intention every night before you go to bed and just say out loud i'm gonna fly in my dream tonight and just keep saying it until you do because it's the best feeling in the entire world.
Tyler:
[1:09:45] I had a a guest who's a close friend on actually he's a guy named kai rand um he's dutch but he was very into lucid dreaming and was one of those people that could like train himself basically every day like okay i'm gonna knock on the door every time i walk through the door that way when i'm dreaming i'll do that and then that'll remind me like oh yeah i'm oh that's so cool and it's so fascinating to kind of hear those stories but it's one of those things about consciousness where it's like is the is the dream world you know the same as the i don't know the astral plane or is it are they different occurrences right uh and i don't know and it's i It's interesting because people like him can't meditate. That's why I bring it up.
Kelly:
[1:10:29] Oh, how interesting. Yeah. Oh, how interesting.
Kelly:
[1:10:33] So I like how you just explained that for me, because then the penny went in the slot. I do think they're a little different, at least for me. In my dreams, I can, not that I can, I have exhibited some control over what's happening, shifting a scene, things like that. But most of the time, I'm more of an observer. I'm more at the whim of what's going on around me and kind of just moving through the dream. In my meditation, I'm such an active participant. And it's not because I'm controlling it, but I'm so at one with everything that's going on. And if it's if it's very sound based, I mean, I literally have broken apart into pure vibration to in order to become one with the sound, you know, things like that. But there's no fear. I have never, ever come out of meditation in a heightened state of adrenaline or fear or, you know, how sometimes you have a really intense dream and you wake up and you're still reliving it a bit and you're you're having a somatic response in your body. That never i still come out of my meditations completely um just i mean i wouldn't say calm but not stimulated.
Tyler:
[1:12:01] Sure physically sure it's for
Kelly:
[1:12:04] Me they are different.
Tyler:
[1:12:05] It's profound i think to look at the different ways that people meditate i said you know the first question was like do you meditate and then i had to clarify i was like wait wait wait what do you call meditation because so many people do it in so many different ways. I remember someone had broke it down. I don't remember if this was like an NPR thing or whatever, but someone was talking about the difference between mindfulness and mindfulness, right? Oh, I love that. Right. So one way of meditating is this idea of like, clear your mind, right? Like empty your thoughts and don't, you know, focus on one thing or whatever. But then there's the opposite end of the spectrum where it's like you need to find like the optimal level of keeping yourself constantly thinking such that you're neither overwhelmed nor are you feeling the anxiousness of being bored. And that's also like sort of a meditative experience or at least something that you can do and find yourself reliably sitting on a on a wavelength brain wise.
Kelly:
[1:13:09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
Tyler:
[1:13:11] Right. So in like when you're when you're walking and pushing a stroller and you've got your cell phone in your hand and there's music playing and you're doing everything effortlessly. That's a different your brain is doing something different than when you are sitting down and figuring out how to do something technical for the first time. Right pulling your computer apart or something like that it's completely different process same way when you sit down when you meditate i bet you if we like put an ekg or something on your head and see when you're like my body's breaking apart with the sounds and i'm talking to all these spirits and then i sit down next to you and also meditate my way i bet you we have completely different results there's probably totally different things going on totally
Kelly:
[1:13:50] Different and i think that's a really important thing to continue to talk about because so many people So it just breaks my heart because so many people that I work with, they want to meditate, but then it causes a lot of self-judgment because they think they suck at it. And I'm like, well, that completely defeats the whole point of meditation because meditation is supposed to be a chance to tap into and check in with yourself and just release judgment, release that egoic perception of the self.
Tyler:
[1:14:18] Sure.
Kelly:
[1:14:18] But because they, I think, try to do the more quiet the mind and perhaps use a mantra and which is beautiful and it helps millions of people. But when they it's really hard to quiet the mind.
Tyler:
[1:14:33] I just imagine you've never, if you'd never taken your physical, your physical self seriously in your life and you kind of get to a point where it's like, all right, I need to start taking care of myself. And then you look at like the most fit person you can think of and say like, I need to do what they're doing. And you immediately go start doing, you know, deadlifting and bodybuilding exercises. It's not going to fix your problem and you're not going to be able to maintain it because it's not where you're at. So it's the same thing if you're trying to do something with your mind, And, you know, and if it's hard for you to not look at your cell phone for five minutes, then you're probably not going to be able to jump straight into, you know, being a Buddhist monk. You know, you're not going to be just able to do that. You need to start with something that's a little more achievable. And for some people, the first step is not to empty their mind, but it's just like learn how to manage how much you're taking in at a time so that it's optimal for you. Yeah um which in many ways is almost harder than emptying it to be like to be blunt like maintaining balance is much more difficult than emptying the tank or filling it up yeah for me uh and i i've i just encounter so many different uh ways that people describe a meditative experience like someone some people go on like spirit walks like i can only do it while i'm moving because sitting still my mind goes crazy and i can't focus on that kind of thing um
Kelly:
[1:15:54] I do that sometimes i like walking meditations yeah.
Tyler:
[1:15:57] Yeah and
Kelly:
[1:15:58] I i understand that that methodology as well.
Tyler:
[1:16:02] Do you do you like count your steps do you breathe uh along with a certain rhythm or do you just kind of no
Kelly:
[1:16:10] I connect with trees.
Tyler:
[1:16:12] Okay like by touching them no
Kelly:
[1:16:15] It's more through the mycelium.
Tyler:
[1:16:17] Okay yeah
Kelly:
[1:16:20] It's how i know it's weird it's weird but um it just really gets me into that zone.
Tyler:
[1:16:26] Sure um
Kelly:
[1:16:28] And then i'm just in that zone for the walk.
Tyler:
[1:16:32] You've looked at your own past lives and stuff. Can you think of any works of fiction or historical figures whose stories you particularly resonate with or find interesting? They don't have to be connected to you at all, just that it stands out.
Kelly:
[1:16:47] Oh, wow. Okay, give me a second. Absolutely. I mean, there's so many admirable people throughout history.
Kelly:
[1:17:01] I did i mean okay can they be i mean like human or can they be the.
Tyler:
[1:17:08] First thing that comes to your mind
Kelly:
[1:17:09] So cersei you know lannister the that just such an amazing um figure in greek mythology and the newest book out um was so good and i really resonated with that um the again you know i resonate with people that that also have that strength tarot card type of life sure the ability to overcome the ability to endure um to take on challenges and figure it out may you know it may not always be successful but you somehow you land on your feet uh but so i i love that and that was recent um god i'm drawing a blank on anybody, i haven't thought about the past in so long um i'm drawing a blank there's there's there's no one i don't have a hero sure i don't have an idol or a role model um did you ever, I must have, you know, I mean, when I was, you know, when I was a teenager, I had, you know, like, crushes. But no, there was no, I have to say, there was never any one person that I thought, God, I want to be like them.
Tyler:
[1:18:35] Did your parents stay married?
Kelly:
[1:18:37] Yes.
Tyler:
[1:18:38] Okay. And they still, are they, like, still together or passed away?
Kelly:
[1:18:43] They passed away, but they died.
Tyler:
[1:18:45] That's amazing. and that might be why you didn't seek out heroes outside of that right like if you grow up with a stable outcome like stable parents or that kind of thing i feel like you don't you don't need to go look for your dad right because you have one yeah oh completely right you know i don't need to go through life looking for a surrogate mom because you have one whereas yeah in my this life for me was a whole lot of like looking for someone to be my father figure like please give me some freaking guidance. And that's what led me to the military. It's what put me into business and that kind of thing was always kind of looking at people who I thought were smarter, more successful, and then, okay, what can I take away from what they're doing to improve myself?
Kelly:
[1:19:30] Wow, Tyler, that's such an interesting point of view. I've never heard it explained that way, but it makes so much sense. Sure.
Tyler:
[1:19:36] Yeah.
Kelly:
[1:19:36] It makes so much sense. I mean, my parents were extraordinary people, so they really showed up and gave me, you know, what I needed in terms of mother energy, father energy, from an archetype point of view, but also just from a loving, caring, nurturing, you know, security point of view.
Tyler:
[1:19:53] Sure. I mean, just from a completely removed from any sort of spiritual mumbo jumbo, just like purely psychological point of view, the person who is going to be most attracted to the archetype of a loving, caring, all compassionate father figure, uh who is both authoritative but also like caring is going to be like uh women who are probably like single mothers grew up without a father don't have a husband to take care of them and that's like i don't i don't know that that's intentional but it's like the people who have the most need god often is reflected to them psychologically speaking as what they most crave um and that's you know that you could get into the the whole what was the era of pisces and and what is that what does that mean for now or like all that kind of thing but it's i don't think it's really pertinent to this conversation but yeah that's a that's a pretty profound insight and i don't think it's not something i thought about before but as you were saying and i was like i wonder if both of her parents yeah just really cool married
Kelly:
[1:20:58] And and they were solid you know completely self-sufficient, never, you know, they died with their wits. They never faltered until they got sick and died.
Tyler:
[1:21:10] Sure.
Kelly:
[1:21:12] Oh, I love that. That is so interesting to me. And thank you for that. That really, that lands big time.
Tyler:
[1:21:21] Well, let me, I feel like it's kind of useless to recommend stuff because you already, you'll already know things without like, oh, I never read that.
Kelly:
[1:21:28] No, no, no. Don't be silly. Recommend.
Tyler:
[1:21:30] Let me, let me, let me add this to your, like, maybe in your next life, someone will ask you this and you'll already know it. Right. You should really look into Carl Jung and just study his analysis of symbolism, spirituality, UFOs even, and just the way that he explains how this occurrence psychologically relates to myth and just the human longing for God figures and that kind of thing.
Kelly:
[1:21:58] No, I love stuff like this. Yeah. So is there one book of his that you would recommend or is it just start Google it?
Tyler:
[1:22:06] Start with like Man and His Symbols.
Kelly:
[1:22:08] Man and His Symbols. Oh, that sounds good.
Tyler:
[1:22:11] Just start there. And then if it's probably like 150 pages or something, if that lands for you, then, you know, you'll write me later and be like, hey, I'm really into this.
Kelly:
[1:22:19] Oh, I'm super psyched. I will definitely write you because I will definitely do it.
Tyler:
[1:22:22] I think that as a fan of tarot, which I think he probably wrote some stuff on tarot as well, but he was very big on the concept of archetypes being understood in psychology. And even, you know, when we were talking about disembodied spirits or, you know, people who have dissociative identity disorder, that kind of stuff where it's like, it's not as simple as just like this person had some trauma. So they built up another defense mechanism to make it, you know, a personality that doesn't have to interface with it. That's true. But it's also true that like their physiology changes. Like one personality has diabetes and another one is perfectly normal kind of stuff. Exactly. It's extraordinary. People like him were kind of looking at this like, OK, what are some examples we have? You know, we don't have history, but maybe there's something in mythology that can relate to that. But one of the things that blew my mind when I first thought about it was that if you look at tarot as a story and the fool is John the Baptist who becomes before Jesus, right? The magician who then – when someone first made me think of it in that way, I'm like, oh, this is – that's why the Bible resonates with you the same way that the tarot does.
Kelly:
[1:23:36] Right.
Tyler:
[1:23:36] Because they're both telling you the hero's journey, the story, and it's just a matter of how do you shuffle the cards.
Kelly:
[1:23:44] I mean, look at every good saga. I mean, the Bible is a saga, but like Star Wars. Classic tarot fool's journey it's the year it's it's campbell's hero's journey.
Tyler:
[1:23:57] I mean
Kelly:
[1:23:59] Every good story has that element that and it's and it's it makes it a good story because as a human being we resonate with it not because we see our own current life in it but we see it could be a past life but we've we we know the story somewhere deep within us it may not be conscious it's in our subconscious but we know what that is.
Tyler:
[1:24:21] Right yeah um just you when you say star wars the first thing that pops in a moment is like every single archetype is so drawn in black and white ink in that movie that it's hard to ignore once you look at it from that lens i think i'm sure there are people who have written university papers on like how uh the writers of star wars understood occult symbolism better than you know whatever they're probably freemason all that kind of stuff but yeah it's really blatant just
Kelly:
[1:24:50] Get back to george lucas and his whole use of the of the force i mean he was literally describing the fabric of the universe.
Tyler:
[1:24:59] He was also hanging out with some very interesting people in the late 60s and 70s
Kelly:
[1:25:03] Yeah how freaking clever.
Tyler:
[1:25:04] Um i'm
Kelly:
[1:25:06] So ahead of his time.
Tyler:
[1:25:07] He was you know following francis ford coppola around the country making a documentary film while he was dreaming up star wars you know he had a like we we kind of look at it like and then he just showed up on the scene as a director right you know he'd had american graffiti before that and then star wars he'd
Kelly:
[1:25:24] Been around right gilberg and coppola they were all like a posse.
Tyler:
[1:25:28] All of those guys all of them uh were deeply influenced by cubrick and cubrick was a one like a ceremonial magician. Like he 100% understood what he was doing. Like his movies are in many cases, like overt rituals that as someone who's not initiated into those circles, you know, would just say like wow what an interesting weird movie but then like when you start to know that like all right this guy was connected to this and that he would have known these people that the fact that this entire movie was shot in christmas colors is not a coincidence like he did this intentionally like the the little kid's sweater in the shining saying apollo 13 on it is not a coincidence right that wasn't just that available to them he said i want that kid wearing that shirt in this shot when i show this for everything he did it was like obsessive compulsive magicianship i
Kelly:
[1:26:25] Didn't i don't know anything about him.
Tyler:
[1:26:26] Yeah um yeah it's not to like it's not to start some kind of weird conspiracy theory it's just like a lot of the greatest stories that we get told are great stories because they are based on people who know that symbolism which all goes back to In Western society, at least, esotericism starts with ancient Judaism.
Kelly:
[1:26:50] Right. Yeah, as it would.
Tyler:
[1:26:52] Yeah.
Kelly:
[1:26:53] Oh, I'm still reading Carl Jung. This is going to be good for me.
Tyler:
[1:26:56] Yeah, I really hope you enjoy it. I think that you'll get a lot out of it. I think we had a little bit longer today, but I don't want to keep you too long. So I guess at the end here, I'd like to know what cards do you see,
Tyler:
[1:27:10] uh, showing up for your clients the most often? Like, or maybe what types of problems do people come to you when they're facing them?
Kelly:
[1:27:19] Well, I mean, really, at the end of the day, as you probably well know from, you know, all your all your studies and breakthroughs and awareness, human playbook is really like seven or eight plays. It's all it is. And, you know, we all play out an abandonment wound, a worthiness wound, a fear of lack, a fear of safety, you know, all these things. I will be seen. um but the big five are typically your love health career your primary adult relationship and death those tend to be the really and you know so let's like take love it could be with a child it could be with you know but most people come to me because they are really stuck um they tried other methods they've tried therapy they've tried working exclusively through the filter of the mind and the filter of their past. One thing I can tell you about my work is I don't care what's happened to you. I mean, I care because I'm a compassionate person, so I want to know your story if you're willing to share it with me, but it's not the least bit relevant to what we're about to do together.
Tyler:
[1:28:26] Sure.
Kelly:
[1:28:27] My work has to do with where you are right now in relationship to where you want to be, because the gap between those two is suffering. That's all it is. Suffering is simply separation. So my job is to put myself out of a job. My highest compliment is when I don't hear back from a person. I love when that happens. Because they have found some sort of resolution, some sort of traction, some sort of momentum in a way that is satisfying to them and sustainable for the time being and hopefully for the remainder of their days. But most people, I would say, Tyler to answer your question it's love or career and and most people when it comes to love it's either the fear of loss of love or where is love for me.
Tyler:
[1:29:15] I'm
Kelly:
[1:29:16] Tired of being alone with career it normally has to do with money and everybody phrases it with these damn words abundance and prosperity and all this like come on let's just cut to the chase and say you want money there's nothing wrong with that if you approach it from the right vibration it has nothing to do with the seven deadly sin of greed.
Tyler:
[1:29:37] I approach that slightly differently not to cut you off for anything but when it's like i want money then my question is just like what do you need the money for like what is the goal of like the money because if it's just money for the like i just want money like all right well then you don't really have a tangible goal you know what i mean like the answer is just always like how much is enough more right but if it's like i need enough money to pay off my house is different right right okay
Kelly:
[1:30:09] But, and I'm so glad you said that because that then allows me to explain, like, you won't get money if you want money from that place.
Tyler:
[1:30:16] Right.
Kelly:
[1:30:17] That's a selfish reason to want money. The universe will only give you money if you are willing to have it come through you, let go of it, and have it come circle back around. You have to be able to receive money if you're willing to give it away. It's a cyclical thing, just like everything in life. So if you want money just because you want it, you will never have it. And the one reason alone is just the statement, I want money. What does that say to the universe? What vibration does that put out into the field?
Kelly:
[1:30:48] That you don't have it. And remember, life only gives you what you are, not what you want. So you will receive more situations and experiences of not having it. You have to resonate and vibrate from the state of what does it feel like of the having of it. So for most people why do most people want money is because they want the security they want the stability they want to feel safe I get it But we have to get you to that place and that vibration, With zero dollars in the bank And then the money will come.
Tyler:
[1:31:26] That's really beautiful. I want to throw in there at the end, like in the Lord's Prayer, there's the line about like, give us this day our daily bread. And I'm not going to try to jump into trying to explain that in Greek because I really don't understand. But the idea is that if you want something from the universe, you have to be kind of participating in this sort of socialistic aspect of, I want money when I need it. And if you're okay with not having it except for in that moment, then you will probably find more often than not that it's there when you need it. And then if you don't worry about it at the rest of the time, at the least you won't be worried about it all the time. That's a huge difference.
Kelly:
[1:32:10] Which then allows it to go.
Tyler:
[1:32:12] Right. And then it's like if you just kind of surrender yourself to participating in it that way, I find for me, at minimum, I'm a lot less stressed out. I'm like, ah, well, you know, I'll figure that out later.
Kelly:
[1:32:25] That's beautiful. I love that. And that's it right there. That's the secret of manifestation that so many people miss out on. They approach it from what they want, not realizing that that separates them from the having of it.
Tyler:
[1:32:42] Right well thank you so much for your time this is honestly like some of the times these conversations are like i i hear myself like i know when i listen back to this and i'm gonna hear some of the things that i said for the sake of explaining it to you and i'm gonna ask myself where did that come from like you know i wouldn't have even had that thought if you weren't challenged by something that lady said or whatever it's so brilliant um like really you've been an excellent guest so
Kelly:
[1:33:07] Thank you you have been an incredible host so thank you for having me on i was a real privilege.
Tyler:
[1:33:12] Thank you and we'll send people to arcanum the series.com where they can drive your website
Kelly:
[1:33:17] And the books are available on amazon um and you can and any of your audience can contact me through the website um and i always thank.
Tyler:
[1:33:26] You so much have a great rest of your day
Tyler:
[1:33:35] Thank you very very much to kelly for being on the show i uh i learned a lot there i really really like these kinds of conversations even when you don't necessarily know uh whether you and the other person believe in exactly the same things but just like i said in the interview finding those overlaps finding those areas where you can relate to someone who you may have a completely different world be from a completely different background from and i strive towards that i hope that uh i hope that you're enjoying it please let us know in the comments and uh tell a friend how much you love the show i love you god love you till next time stay in the keep
